| Nanashi |
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When I wrote,
The Maiden of Mehrunes I had alot of interesting ideas involving
conflict and control in Oblivion with the Daedra, I wonder if it was
ever discussed their 'chain of command' who obeys who and the like?
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| TSBasilisk |
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The rule of
Oblivion is separated into the various Spheres of the Daedric
Princes, each controlling their own realm and the denizens within.
The Princes generally act as equals, since they are essentially
equals, and a fight between them could result in mutual
destruction.
Below the Princes lie varying chains, which
generally go from the strongest Daedroth down to the weakest(in this
post, Daedroth refers to a single Daedric entity, not the type seen
in MW). So a Dremora would be subservient to a Dremora Lord, who
would in turn bow to a Daedric Count. At times, the chain might have
a variance, such as a more intelligent scamp in the service of
Malacath being superior to a stronger, but rock-dumb,
Ogrim.
In interactions between the denizens of separate
spheres, the strongest would control the exchange, or smartest if
the difference is great enough.
--------------------
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| Marauth Alaí-Rán |
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One caveat to
that the Daedra cannot be destroyed ever, only their physical
manifestations can be 'killed' their soul will be cast into the
farthest reaches of Oblivion to find their way back to their
particular realm. There is a kind of 'order' to the Daedra Princes
if you consider that some Princes - Malacath, who is not a true
Daedra, he is the remains of Trinimac, and Peryite, the Taskmaster
are considered the lowest ranking Princes.
--------------------
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| TSBasilisk |
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The Daedra can
not be slain permanently by mortals, save for with the use of the
Moon Reiver sword in conjunction with the Savior's Hide and the
Daedroth's true names, true. But we do not know if another Daedroth
can kill another. If you pit two powers of equal power against one
another, they will burn themselves out trying to destroy each other.
Remember that the Aedra could die, and the Aedra were once the same
as the Daedra.
And while those Princes may be lower on the
totem pole, they are not at the point where any Prince can order
them around. They might not pose as much of a threat, but their
strength is sufficient to give the others pause before committing
themselves to a depleting battle.
--------------------
Member of the Forum Scholars Guild
Member of Greater Dwemer Ruins, Modder in charge of Nchuleft
Edited by TSBasilisk (07/28/04 12:41
AM)
Post Extras: |
| Gleb |
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Quote:
Remember that the Aedra could die, and the Aedra were once the
same as the Daedra.
Tsk tsk TS. The Ancestors can
die because they are bound to the Mundus. That means the et'Ada
could not die because they are not bound to our world. The Daedra,
not being bound to the Mundus, are unkillable. Theoretically, you
could use your method TS to completly destroy the Animus, but how
you would prevent the Daedroth from simply fleeing to Oblivion is
beyond me. Unless, of course, you find some way to go into Oblivion,
where, hypothetically, the Daedroth would be unable to flee, and
would be easy pickings, but the Daedra you would likely insult would
not be.
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| TSBasilisk |
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You
misunderstand me, Gleb. The Moon Reiver method is a quite difficult
methods that even the hero of the Battlespire could not use
effectively. But it is what that method does which is important. By
speaking both names and striking with a sword filled with energy
which causes the decay of immortal bodies, the essence of the
Daedroth would be exposed to the one thing which could truly harm it
by striking at the Animus.
But this is only going to work on
Mundus, as the essence of the Daedroth is shielded in Oblivion. The
chances of a mortal ever killing a Daedroth permanently are
infinitesimal. But a Daedroth could kill another permanently.
--------------------
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| Celezar |
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Quote:
The rule of Oblivion is separated into the various Spheres of
the Daedric Princes, each controlling their own realm and the
denizens within. The Princes generally act as equals, since they
are essentially equals, and a fight between them could result in
mutual destruction.
Below the Princes lie varying chains,
which generally go from the strongest Daedroth down to the
weakest(in this post, Daedroth refers to a single Daedric entity,
not the type seen in MW). So a Dremora would be subservient to a
Dremora Lord, who would in turn bow to a Daedric Count. At times,
the chain might have a variance, such as a more intelligent scamp
in the service of Malacath being superior to a stronger, but
rock-dumb, Ogrim.
In interactions between the denizens of
separate spheres, the strongest would control the exchange, or
smartest if the difference is great enough.
When you say spheres, does
this refer to seperate planets? Because from what I've heard about
the realm Oblivion is that it is the space that files between the
stars so basicaly it is outer space so I was wondering if the
spheres were planets.
--------------------
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Daedric
Spheres are methods by which the Daedra change. For example
Hircine's sphere is the hunt.
I would have you believe that
Daedra are locked within them. That the Daedra must act within them.
That they are slaves to them.
It's also true that each
Daedra Prince controls a seperate land in Oblivion. They all have
their own armies of lesser Daedra.
--------------------
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Edited by El_Ahrairah
(07/30/04 02:17 AM)
Post
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| Gleb |
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Heh heh. Can't
dispute the point that you messed up though. The Aedra can die
because they are bound to Nirn, whereas the Daedra are not. Perhaps
speaking the two True Names causes the Daedra to be bound in some
way to Nirn? I didn't really get how I misunderstood you making a
minor slip up. Unless you were talking about something else in my
post? Please be more specific on what I misunderstood. Thank in
advance.
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| Celezar |
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Quote:
Daedric Spheres are methods by which the Daedra change. For
example Hircine's sphere is the hunt.
I would have you
believe that Daedra are locked within them. That the Daedra must
act within them. That they are slaves to them.
It's also
true that each Daedra Prince controls a seperate land in Oblivion.
They all have their own armies of lesser Daedra.
So basically the spheres are
what the daedra princes are princes of, for example Sheogoraths
sphere would be the sphere of madness?
--------------------
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A common
misconception. Mine is the sphere of shoes, syrups, hairless animals
(and plants), and light operas. And it’s not a sphere. It’s a baby
blue Rhombus married to a sassy triskaidecagon with silver frustums
and fat circumcenters.
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Attrebus |
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Do shaved pets
fall under your baby blue Rhombus married to a sassy triskaidecagon
with silver frustums and fat circumcenters? That kind of rolls of
the tounge, doesn't it? 
Also, does that make shoe wearing, syrup eating, hairless
vegetable Lamb of Tartary in light opera's the embodyment of what
you represent? 
--------------------
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| TSBasilisk |
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The Daedra do
not so much have spheres that represent them as they are the
spheres. Hircine does not simply control the Sphere of the Hunt; he
IS the Hunt. And be wary of Sheogorath's words, for he is dangerous
to those who read them openly. Wabbajack...
To Gleb, a
Daedroth is not completely immortal. The Aedra were once as powerful
and nearly immortal as the Daedra. However, they gave up parts of
themselves in the creation of Mundus, which stole away parts of
their near immortality. If a Daedroth were to pit their power
against another fully, they would gradually expend that power,
weakening themselves. While the Aedra became mortal through
creation, the Daedra would become mortal by battle. Once a Daedric
spirit passes a certain critical point in power, it becomes
partially mortal, and can be killed.
--------------------
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| Gleb |
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Oh yes.
Basilisk is right. Be wary when speaking to ANY daedra. Especially a
Prince. Especially Sheogorath. I almost had to be his plaything for
1000 years you know, just for defying him. No matter what you do, DO
NOT, I repeat, DO NOT, under any circumstances, challenge a Daedric
Prince.
Basilisk. I fail to see how that would work, this
total battle of expension. It seems impossible to destroy a Daedra
Prince. Unless, of course, DPs are their spheres, but their spheres
are not the DPs. An example in the RL would be, Catholics are
Christians, but Christians are not Catholics. Sort of a
quasi-accurate analogy. That's the only thing I can think of at this
late hour that is similar. Yes, the Aedra can be killed, but let's
get back to talking about the Daedra, not whether they can be
killed.
It would seem that the Devs don't know the proper
order of nobility. Barons, last time I checked, were beneath Lords.
Was not so in the Battlespire.
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| Tedders |
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Quote:
It would seem that the Devs don't know the proper order of
nobility. Barons, last time I checked, were beneath Lords. Was not
so in the Battlespire.
You're mistaken.
It’s a
fairly complex subject, and depending on the location, the
hierarchal rules vary. After all, in the Barony of Dwynnen, there
are no higher ranking people than the Baron (unless the Emperor
comes to visit).
In RW England, anyhow, there are five
grades of peerage: Duke, Marquess, Earl, Viscount, and Baron. Except
for Dukes (and Duchesses), all are addresses as Lord in
conversation. The Earl of Wolverhamptonshire-on-the-Lark you would
be proper in calling Lord Wolverhamptonshire-on-the-Lark (as if that
really saved you any time).
There are also no Counts, but
female Earls are called Countesses.
There are also titles
beneath Baron, Baronets and Knights, who are called “Sir,” but whose
titles aren’t automatically passed down to their
heirs.
Anyhow, I hope this clears up the question of whether
the devs and ex-devs know anything about feudal hierarchy.
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| Gleb |
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Hi Tedders!
Could you, eh, post in the thread about where Mages and Priests get
their spells from? It's "Priests Vs. Mages," I think. And I forgot
that the hierarchy varies from place to place. And off subject, but
could you please include Ayleids in the next game?
Please ? Pretty please with an ash yam on top?
*Begs*
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| Tedders |
| Curate |
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Alas, it is
not up to me to decree which races are playable or present in the
next game.
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| Gleb |
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D'Oh! Oh well.
Petitions seem to get things done. Maybe I'll start a thread like
that. Could someone tell me which forum part that would go in?
Community Discussion, here, the parts for the expansions, or
Morrowind General? Or maybe all (Mods would kill me.)?
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| Tedders |
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Do petitions
work? Well, I suppose they couldn't hurt.
If it's
specifically about Ayleids, it'd probably be smart to do it in here,
where people actually know what they are from the books ...
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| Gleb |
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Hmm... This is
technically the Elder Scrolls General, so I don't see why it would
be moved, since that could include future Elder Scrolls games, and
there were several threads about TESIV.
Also, while on the
subject of Ayleids, did the of 2920 make up the description of them
there, like he did with the Tsaesci? Because I'm thinking it would
be good to include the only known description of them in the
petition. I'd ask you in PM, but you aren't excepting any. And I
don't think His Madness would give an understandable answer
On
a more related note, are Demiprinces like Fa-Huit-Nen from the
Sermons to Princes as Her Hands are to Almalexia? Or do they merely
rule over different aspects of the Prince they report to? Do they
even report to Princes? I suppose what I'm asking is, could you
clarify what the role of a Demiprince is? I humbly request this
information.
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| Tedders |
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I’m afraid I’m
not going to be much help on this either. I don’t really want to
give away information about the Ayleids and the Daedra, as
mysterious as both of those groups are supposed to be.
I
would suggest though that:
1. Ayleids, unlike the Tsaesci,
are sometimes – if rarely – seen in Tamriel. So even if the
author hasn’t seen one himself, it’s safe to say he knows people who
have and he expects some of his audience has, so he was pretty
accurate in his description. However unspecific that description
was.
2. There is no specific function or duty of a
demiprince. Some Princes have little organization and hierarchy in
their realms, others have a very militaristic caste system. There’s
no one answer to that, except the obvious: a demiprince is half a
prince, a pretty powerful thing.
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| Miltiades |
| Dremora Prince |
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Hmmm, a little
clarification regarding the defeat of Mehrunes Dagon at the
Battlespire in respect to mortality/immortality.
Speaking the
Neonymic of Dagon in conjuction to using the Sword of the Moon
Reiver did not make Mehrunes Dagon mortal or anything. It only
allowed the hero a brief chance at banishing the mortal form of the
Daedra Lord in one blow.
As legend states, the Sword of the
Moon Reiver was forged with the essence of Mehrunes Dagon; and thus
by speaking the Neonymic (as Mehrunes Dagon could not be affected by
his Protonymic anymore); the gateway was forced open. The Sword then
acted as a catalyst to send the energy back through into
Oblivion.
The Armor of the Savior merely gave the hero those
precious few seconds in which to act before running the risk of
being consumed by the power of Mehrunes Dagon (and thus,
die).
At least that's my theory behind all of
this...
Greetz,
Milt
--------------------
Look for me,
out there in the Void... There you shall find me, smiling back at
you...
Evil teamleader of the Playable Dremora
project
Asian Dragon Statues - DOWNLOAD
Post Extras: |
| Gleb |
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Thank you for
the clarification. I'm glad to hear that the description I've been
going by since I read 2920 was accurate, however vague that may have
been.
Hmm... The only question that remains for me now, is
whether "darker than an Altmer..." means darker than an Arena Altmer
(Brownish skin), a Daggerfall Altmer (More mannish skin), or a
Morrowind Altmer (Yellow skin). Heh heh. I think I've already found
the Dev Excuse: "They changed breeding programs."
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| Mehrunes_Dagon |
| Adept |
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What of
Scourge? When actually used in Oblivion it is fatal to lesser
Daedra. Or if used on a Lesser Daedra on Nirn that have no way of
retreating it is also fatal. To any Daedra more powerful than the
lesser however, it can only banish us (if our spirit is vanquished
of course).
And forgive me for not paying closer attention
here. I have been... preoccupied.
--------------------
I
am the God of Destruction. Fear me.
http://groups.msn.com/DalothIsland/
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| Gleb |
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Preparing for
something the likes of which has not been seen since before the war
with Man, no doubt.
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| Aeroldoth |
| Acolyte |
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Quote:
In RW England, anyhow, there are five grades of peerage:
Duke, Marquess, Earl, Viscount, and Baron. Except for Dukes (and
Duchesses), all are addresses as Lord in conversation. The Earl of
Wolverhamptonshire-on-the-Lark you would be proper in calling Lord
Wolverhamptonshire-on-the-Lark (as if that really saved you any
time).
There are also no Counts, but female Earls are
called Countesses.
There are also titles beneath Baron,
Baronets and Knights, who are called “Sir,” but whose titles
aren’t automatically passed down to their heirs.
I thought things went like
this (not necessarily tied to
England):
Archduke/Archduchess.........Your
Grace
Duke/Duchess......................Your
Grace
Marquess/Marquessa
or
Marquis/Marquess................Your Lord-/Lady- ship,My
Lord/Lady
Earl/???................................Same
Count/Countess...................Same
Viscount/Viscountess............Same
Baron/Baroness....................Same
Baronet/Baronette.................???
Knight/Knight.........................Sir/Dame,
Your
???
Squire/(n/a?).........................Esquire/(n/a?)
You're
saying that Baronet and Knight are non-hereditary? Also, is there
any address for a knight other than say, "yes Sir Knight," as in
"yes, my Lord?" What is the difference between a baron and baronet?
Is baronet the title for a landed knight?
Post Extras: |
| TSBasilisk |
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Knights must
earn their title, and be of noble blood. Thus the son of a knight
might be nobility or of noble blood, but not have his father's
title. It is an honorary.
As for baronet, it is a rank
between baron and knight, but is a hereditary position in England
and Ireland. However, it is below the peerage of the nobility.
--------------------
Member of the Forum Scholars Guild
Member of Greater Dwemer Ruins, Modder in charge of Nchuleft
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| Tedders |
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You’re right.
Baronet is a hereditary title. It’s the only hereditary knighthood
in England. I was so flummoxed by Gleb’s assertion that the TES devs
don’t know our titles of nobility that, ironically, I messed up
one.
But that’s right: knights are addressed as Sir (First
Name). All other titles up to Duke are addressed as Lord (Property
name). The Earl of Wessex might be named Bob Billysnuck, but he
would be referred to formally as Lord Wessex.
There’s a book
in Daggerfall which explains how it works, including what Lord
Wessex’s children would be called.
Post
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| Gleb |
| Curate |
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| Reged: 06/10/04 |
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That's
incredibly odd. I kept trying to post, and it kept saying, "All the
required fields are not filled in."
Then I clicked refresh,
and for some reason I wasn't logged on anymore. And I was when I was
trying to post.
Oh well.
Back on subject.
Quote:
I was so flummoxed by Gleb’s assertion that the TES devs don’t
know our titles of nobility that, ironically, I messed up one.
Ironically, I don't know the
hierarchy myself .
I live in America.
Am I correct in assuming that not all
Princes follow the same command chain?
Last of my questions
for you (Until TESIV): What's the Aldmeris name for Ayleids, and the
Old Cyrodiilic name for Maormer?
*Laughs at what a pain it must
be to be swamped with my questions every post*
Edited by Gleb (08/02/04 10:42 PM)
Post Extras: |
| Tedders |
| Curate |
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Quote:
Ironically, I don't know the hierarchy myself
I know, but I do. That Baronet
gaffe is something I’ll have to live down …
Quote:
Am I correct in assuming that not all Princes follow the same
command chain?
That would reasonable to
assume.
Quote:
What's the Aldmeris name for Ayleids, and the Old Cyrodiilic
name for Maormer?
Good questions … hmm … I don’t
know. Someone might’ve written it up somewhere, but not me. Ask
WormGod if he knows (and is willing to tell). It doesn’t sound like
the sort of thing that would be secret.
Post Extras: |
| Gleb |
| Curate |
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Thank you.
Sorry
about the Nobility thing. I'll try and ask WormGod.
Post Extras: |
| TSBasilisk |
| Diviner |
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By the way,
that problem occassionally pops up with me too. I once posted, and
was redirected to the main index, logged out.
Also, the thing
is that a Daedric Count is referring to a level of Daedra, while a
Dremora Lord is simply a level within the ranks of the Dremora.
--------------------
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| Aeroldoth |
| Acolyte |
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So could
someone explain please what exactly a baronet is? How are they
addressed? Are they "lords" like the others or "sir" like the
knights?
Would a female knight be Dame, or would they be Sir
as with males?
How common is/was it in the UK to promote
commoners to knighthood (or higher) for valiant deeds? I was always
under the impression that there was a very thick line between nobles
and peasants, and only EXTRA-ordinary events would let a filthy
peasant join the perfumed ranks of the nobles. What would happen to
their spouses or children?
Post Extras: |
| Tedders |
| Curate |
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Knights and
baronets are both called “Sir” as in Sir Launcelot or Sir Paul
McCartney. His wife is referred to as “Lady.” A Dame is the female
equivalent of Knight, given as an honor to a commoner woman, as in
Dame Judi Densch or Dame Agatha Christie. Her husband is given no
title.
Baronets were not created until the Renaissance. They
are essentially the same rank as a knight, but the position is
hereditary, as TSBasilisk corrected me on.
Here’s the book
from Daggerfall that discusses the deal with titles in High Rock,
which is slightly different to titles in the UK:
http://til.gamingsource.co.uk/dfbooks/b079_etiquette.shtml
Quote:
How common is/ was it in the UK to promote commoners to
knighthood (or higher) for valiant deeds?
Depends on the era and what
you would consider frequent. Since titles are honorifics, they lose
some of their luster by being passed out too frequently, just as
people don’t get the Nobel Prize or Academy Award every day. Some
English rulers have been more generous with passing out of titles
than others.
Of course, while there are plenty of examples of
someone doing something great for his country and getting a title,
there are plenty of examples of a ruler in need of funds or an ally
giving a title to someone for no better reason than to get at the
money. It’s an easily abused system.
The current Queen of
England announces her “honours list” twice a year, at New Years and
in June, which consist of all the new titles she is conferring based
on merit. I’m not sure how many people average on each list, but
here’s a link to a recent one from 2003, which is 97 pages
long:
http://www.number-10.gov.uk/files/pdf/Queens-List-2003.pdf
None
of this, incidentally, has anything at all to do with how things are
done in Oblivion. The names of Daedra Count and Daedra Prince et
cetera were given to the creatures based on men and mers’
assumptions of their relative power and influence. In our world,
there are emperor geese and emperor moths, named by someone long ago
because they were magnificent looking, not because they reigned over
an empire, bossing around their underlings, and arranging invasions
and truces.
The titles given to Daedra are much the same to
the title given to moths and geese. It’s unwise to infer that
because there’s a system of rank in the minds of the people of
Mundus that the Daedra do it the same way.
In other words,
one shouldn’t assume that Sheogorath routinely honors the daedra he
commands with honorifics based on their “good” deeds, raising a
Daedra Lord up to the level of Daedra Count.
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| zentusken |
| Curate |
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| Reged: 07/27/03 |
| Posts: 550 |
| Loc: Sigil | |
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Moon Reiver
sword -----------what is this?
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My new forum
PLEASE JOIN! hehe
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| Tedders |
| Curate |
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| Reged: 04/07/01 |
| Posts: 495 |
| Loc: Los Angeles, CA | |
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I don’t know
if this is on subject, but I believe Moon Reiver was the fourth
James Bond film Roger Moore starred in.
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| Gleb |
| Curate |
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| Posts: 999 |
| Loc: Pyandonaea | |
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Quote:
I don’t know if this is on subject, but I believe Moon Reiver
was the fourth James Bond film Roger Moore starred in.
I think that's Moon Raker
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...
Oh,
Gleb ... Master Of The Bleedin' Obvious ...
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What's your
favorite bond movie, oh banker of biliousness?
--------------------
Wisdom is found on the desolate
hillside, where none comes to feed, and the stony bank where the
rabbit scratches a hole in vain.
X-Box
"My Tower" can be found at Amarth's Morrowind
Website!
Post Extras: |
| Attrebus |
| Hitman |
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| Reged: 03/04/04 |
| Posts: 275 |
| Loc: South Australia | |
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*Ahem* Back on
topic thanks.
--------------------
Remember the 4th of First Seed -
Dusk and Dusk.
A day devoted to Scholarly Pursuits and
Truth.
And Stri'Ker, who died for these - May he be remembered
always.
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I might as
well ask how big in number the personal armies of a Daedra Prince
may be. I've wondered on it.
--------------------
Wisdom
is found on the desolate hillside, where none comes to feed, and the
stony bank where the rabbit scratches a hole in vain.
X-Box
"My Tower" can be found at Amarth's Morrowind
Website!
Post Extras: |
| Gleb |
| Curate |
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| Reged: 06/10/04 |
| Posts: 999 |
| Loc: Pyandonaea | |
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Quote:
...
Oh, Gleb ... Master Of The Bleedin' Obvious
...
I have a slave by that name?
Such an odd name...
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| treechopper |
| Adept |
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Quote:
The rule of Oblivion is separated into the various Spheres of
the Daedric Princes, each controlling their own realm and the
denizens within. The Princes generally act as equals, since they
are essentially equals, and a fight between them could result in
mutual destruction.
Below the Princes lie varying chains,
which generally go from the strongest Daedroth down to the
weakest(in this post, Daedroth refers to a single Daedric entity,
not the type seen in MW). So a Dremora would be subservient to a
Dremora Lord, who would in turn bow to a Daedric Count. At times,
the chain might have a variance, such as a more intelligent scamp
in the service of Malacath being superior to a stronger, but
rock-dumb, Ogrim.
In interactions between the denizens of
separate spheres, the strongest would control the exchange, or
smartest if the difference is great enough.
Some book I found in Solstheim
said that the spear of bitter mercy could kill a god. Only I am
forgotten wich book it was...... It was something with hunt the
name, if i remember corectly found in Thirsk.
--------------------
_____________________________________
Guns don't kill people.
I DO!!
(warcraft 3, some
very od dwarf
)
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Do you mean
The Postings of the Hunt ? That book, nor any book with
"hunt" in the title is in Solsthiem. I mean that is unique there.
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Wisdom is found on the desolate
hillside, where none comes to feed, and the stony bank where the
rabbit scratches a hole in vain.
X-Box
"My Tower" can be found at Amarth's Morrowind
Website!
Edited by El_Ahrairah
(08/10/04 04:10 PM)
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| TSBasilisk |
| Diviner |
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| Reged: 06/09/03 |
| Posts: 2858 |
| Loc: Durango, CO | |
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The Posting of
the Hunt states clearly that the Spear of Bitter Mercy can effect
lesser Daedra, and ONLY THE PRINCES are immune. So no, it cannot
kill a god.
--------------------
Member of the Forum
Scholars Guild
Member of Greater Dwemer Ruins, Modder in
charge of Nchuleft
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prince
-lord-demora-dagoth-golden saint-orgim
titan-orgim-clanfear-scamp
im just geussin but i think thats
close
oh and my name is earl so from now on i wish to be
adressed as lord
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